Till Darkness Goes

Title:   Till Darkness Goes 
Price:   $*
Designer:   Paul Rohrbaugh
Graphics Designer:   BruceYearian
Publisher:   High Flying Dice Games, LLC
Published Date:   2012

Subject:   A game on the NVA attack against the ROKMC 2nd Brigade's, 3rd Btn, 11th Company at Tra Binh Dong, 14-15 Feb 1967.

Daihan, lai, lai!!!  "Korea, Come, Come!!!" -  On a cold wet foggy dark night 14 February, 1967 at aprx 2320hrs, a small probing force of NVA tested the defenses of the perimeter of the 11th Company's position.  They were heard and illumination rounds fired to light up the area. The probing force retreated. The 11th Company went on alert. Nothing was heard again from outside the wire until aprx 0410 hrs on February 15th.  Drums, whistling, and yelling signal the start of the attack. The perimeter was breached and  hand to hand fighting commenced with the enemy. The battle was finally over at 0730 hrs with clean up and very light combat for the next several hours.  The 11th Company still held their position, while the NVA was soundly beaten.

In the aftermath of this battle, the 11th Company lost 15 KIA and 33 WIA. The NVA and VC count was 243 KIA from small arms. Another 60 KIA presume from small arm fire and 2 POWs.


The 11th Company not only received some of the highest medals from the Republic of Korea, but also a U.S. Presidential Unit Citation. All personnel received a very special honor, everyone (including KIA) were promoted 1 rank higher. This is only the second time in the history of the Republic of Korea military (since 1948) that this honor has been given.

Scale & Game Area:   Area movement where 1" equals 100 yards. ROK Marines are platoons with the North Vietnamese Army/Viet Cong units each being aprx companies (reduced) in size.

Player Supplied Components:   A deck of cards and one ten sided die (1D10, with 0 being 10). 

Card Set:  Of course HFDG has a card set for this game. Cost is $* + postage.  Best to order it with your game to save on that postage!!! And why buy this? Well, eye candy! And the math is done for you for the activations and you don't have to keep remembering what face cards allow you to do such as artillery or A-4 air strikes, or flipping reduced units to full strength, etc.  Easy peasy and still keeps the price under 20 buckazoids.

Components:  Each game comes with  the following:

• 11"x17" game map.
• 44 un-mounted double-sided counters.
• a player's aid card.
• 5 pages of rules, plus a cover sheet!
• a small set of addendum for the game. 

Note: I am going to call the Republic of Korea's Marines player as "ROK".  This is no dis-respect to my brother Marines in Korea. And the North Vietnamese Army and Viet Cong player as "NVA/VC". This is breaking with the nomenclature the game uses for both sides.  Also $* means I don't know what the cost is now.  But there is one.

Game Map:   The game map represents the ROK 11th company's base camp and the surrounding country side complete with jungle, clear, fortified areas, and shrubs (see the Player's Aid Chart). There are no hexes and the game (as mentioned before) uses area movement with one inch equaling 100 yards. It is very well done. (see 3.2, 9.1, 9.1.1, and 9.1.2)

On the west side of the map is the Game Turn Track. The game has 7 game turns with each turn representing 2 hours. Game Turns 1 to 4 are night turns (night turns do affect die rolls). Turn 5 is  dawn and turns 6 and 7 are daylight, allowing the ROK to use A-4 Air Strikes in addition to artillery. (see 3.2, 4.2, 4.4, and 6.0)

On the east side of the map is the Game Record Track that can be consider the heart of the game, as both the ROK and NVA/VC use it for tracking the morale levels of each side - a.k.a Resistance Level for the ROK and the Morale Level for the NVA/VC.

The Game Record Track is also used for tracking the number of NVA/VC artillery support strikes, the ROK artillery support strikes, and for dawn/day turns, the number of A-4 Air Strikes available for each turn.  What makes this track important are the boxes shaded in blue (9 to 7), yellow (6 to 4) and red (3 to 1).  These boxes determine if any additional or lessening of activations occur and/or if an automatic victory is claimed. (see 5.0, 5.1, and 5.2)

In each area on the map are circles with numbers in it. The circles with the top half as black (with white lettering) are Mine Areas, while the other circles are the Area Identifier. On the lower half of all of these circles are numbers that are terrain defense modifiers. If that number is red, it is a modifier for both sides. If the number is blue, it is a modifier only for the ROK units (note: these blue numbers only occur in the ROK tan fortification areas and important to know).(see Player's Aid Chart and 2.1, 3.2, 3.2.2, 4.1, 4.2, 4.3, and 4.4).

Player's Aid Card:   The various terrain on the game map is listed on the Player's Aid Card (PAC), such as clear, jungle, scrub, etc. The PAC also explains the Mine and Area Identifiers. On the PAC is the Activation Track and a guide to what each type of card draw does. The PAC needs to be cut away from the counters. 

Counters/Markers:  The counter art is different from Bruce's usual NATO symbols as it uses generalize drawings of a ROK Marine and NVA regular.  The counters are nicely done and need to be mounted. Of course, if you don't want to mount the counters yourself, you can have it done for a small fee, request at the time of ordering.  You will still need to cut them out, though.  The counters are aprx 5/8" in size and represent both the Republic Of Korea Marines (ROK) and the North Vietnam Army and Viet Cong (NVA/VC) at this battle.

The ROK player has sixteen counters. Of these, seven combat counters (the 11th Company)  and nine various markers for victory points, resistance level, and other markers needed for the ROK player. 

The NVA/VC player has nineteen counters with twelve combat counters representing the 40th and 60th NVA/VC Btns including the unknown Viet Cong unit (a Btn of VC from Quang Ngai by the way). The NVA/VC player also has an additional seven various markers to be used.

There are eight wire breached markers for use with the variant wire breaching rules and one game turn marker for the sum total of 44 counters.

The combat unit markers seem to have generated a bit of history as players complained at not being able to figure out how to read them.  Here is a graphic of the counters that shows how to read the combat units. 

 
Bruce, imho, always does a fine job on the graphics of any game he touches.  This is no exception.  The map, counters, and player's aid are nicely done!!!

Game Versions / Scenarios:   There is only one scenario but several variant rules (that add just a touch of complexity, but do give the game a more historical feel).  Honestly, the game should be played with these rules as it truly brings the sapper units into their own.

Complexity (Scale of 1 to 10): "2" -  The game is rated Introductory. With adding the variant rules, this complexity is, imho, a tad higher that introductory.  And more bloody as was the actual battle.

Setup Time:  Once the counters are mounted and cut out, anywhere between 5 to 8 mins. Of course if the counters are segregated into a gaming tray or small plastic bags, set up is even quicker, with only who is going to play which side and of course getting one's beverage of choice being the slow down factors.

Playing Time:  Game play time is between 1 to 2 hours. If the variant rules are used, add 30 mins to another hour.  Of course with eating pizza and drinking beer, time doesn't matter much.   

Solitaire Playability (Scale 1 to 10):  "9" - Like most of HFDG's games, this game can be played solitaire, and to be honest, this particular game series is HIGHLY suitable, even though it was not designed as such. I give it a 9 and it doesn't matter which side is played as the NVA/VC have one goal with 2 different groups, while the ROK has to survive an attack from these two groups.  Pick whichever side you want to play and go at it.

Rules:  There are five pages of rules. On the last page is a condense history of the battle and an abbreviated sequence of play. The rules are quite good, being short and sweet.

Addenda:   Yes, there is a little addenda and it is duplicated here for those who might have not have any.  As always, it is available from HFDG via email.

Till Darkness Goes 
Addenda, July , 2019

1.0 Components (clarification): The numbers on the counters are as follows:

Top left: Attack Factor (AF)
Lower left: Defense Factor (DF)
Right: Movement Factor (MF)

5.1 and 5.2 (clarification): The 1 through 3 areas on the RL and ML tracks printed on the map are colored red (the yellow boxes are 4 through 6).

Cover (correction). The year date on the cover should be 1967 (not 1966).

Bibliography (update): The link to Jae-sung Chung’s article given in the bibliography is out of date. The current, functional link is: http://www.vietvet.co.kr/us/trabinh.htm.

And that is pretty much it as far as addenda goes.

Description of Play:  Play alternates back forth using card deck draws for the total amount of activations and who gets to activate each round. Players take turns preforming a Card Draw (CD) with each player activating on their color, no matter who draws the card.

Using the "draw of cards" to decide who moves and for combat is a good way to show this type of a see-saw battle, a fire fight, as it does seem like time stands still.  No one can think or act/react in a standard war game of u-go/i-go.  The only other way of possible playing the game is on a computer and have it move, attack/defend while one is doing the same. Of course one can be in actual combat (trust me, you don't want to be there)....

Setup:  ROK player goes first and places the infantry, HQ, and the Heavy Weapons units in any of the tan fortified areas, one unit each. The ROK Divisional Artillery support marker goes into either area 26, 27, or 37 (see 2.1 for other setup info). Once placed, the ROK Divisional Artillery Support marker can not move. Plan carefully.  Artillery support missions are determined for turn 1 (see 4.3).  

Next, the NVA/VC player sets up the six units of the 60th Btn in any jungle areas 1, 2, 3, or 5 with no more than 2 units in an area.  The remaining units of the 40th Btn (six units) are held off the map until called for optional entry into the game. (see 2.2 for other setup info).

Note: For the first round of the first game turn, the NVA/VC player goes first and rolls 1D10. to see how many units that activate.    

Activation and Stacking:  If not using the HFDG card set, then a card deck is shuffled with all four suits (Ace to King) and 1 joker.  Aces are treated as "1's".   

A card is drawn by either player to activate units. Remember - A unit can activate once per Card Draw (round), many times in a turn.

Up to 2 friendly units can stack in an area. And opposing units may occupy the same area.

The NVA/VC player activates on any red card, with the ROK player activation on black cards.  If it a regular numbered card, halve the number, dropping any fraction but not less than 1, for the amount of activations that player can have for that round.

Examples: a black 5 is drawn. The ROK player has up to 2 activations or a red 9 is drawn and the NVA/VC player will have up to 4  unit activations.

Play-Balance:  This game is very finely balance between the two different forces at battle. As in real life this battle could have gone either way (actually, the NVA/VC should have won this battle, but for the training, esprit de corp, and the firepower that was able to be brought to bear on the compound, the battle was hard fought and won by the ROK Marines. Plus the fact, those ROK Marines are tough!

Special Counters:   Special mention needs to be made of three very important counters in the game - two of these are for the ROK player - the HQ unit and the Divisional Artillery Support counters (labeled as "Support Missions" on the counter). The third important counter is for the NVA/VC player and there are two available - the NVA/VC Sapper units, one for each of the NVA/VC battalions. What makes these three counters special?  Good question!!! 

The ROK HQ unit is placed in any of the tan fortification areas during setup. The HQ unit's area location is where a returned ROK unit from a black face card draw is placed. The HQ unit is also used for various adds or subtractions to the many different die rolls for both sides.  If eliminated, two things happen. The ROK player cannot return an eliminated unit back to play, but there is a possibility the HQ unit can be return to play, starting at the end of game turn 3. (see 2.1, 3.2, 5.1, 5.2, 6.0)

The ROK Divisional Artillery Support counter, once placed, cannot moved. If a NVA/VC unit enters the same area as this counter and it is not stacked with another ROK unit, it is eliminated (see 4.1).  This counter is also very important to the ROK with various adds and subtractions. Once eliminated, it cannot be returned via rule 6.0. (see 2.1, 3.2, 4.1, 4.3, 5.1, 5.2, 7.0)

Note: I believe this counter represents Sub Unit One, 1st Air Naval Gunfire Liaison Company (ANGLICO), and Lance Corporals Jim Porta and Dave Long, two US Marines assigned to support the 11th Company. Though both of these Marines and artillery support played a good part in this battle, their names and 1st ANGLICO have disappeared from the ROKMC history on this battle. Please do note that both US Marines survived Nam. 

The NVA/VC Sapper counters are very important to the NVA/VC player as well.   Being able to breach the wire, assist in combat or aid a NVA/VC unit to negate the cost of wire crossing,  There is also a special exception rule for the use of these counters when stacked with a regular unit. (see    As a result, the variant rules 9.1 to 9.1.2 should be used (well, all the rules should be used including 9.2).  

Summary:  There are a few games designed about Nam (HFDG has a lot, with more on the way), but none on any of the South Korean battles, except this one. South Korea has always been a US ally since the Korean War and generally supplies the next largest compliment of Armed Forces to any conflict that the US is involved in (bigger than all other countries, including the UK).  Besides military aid, South Korea also supplied medical and civilian aid to South Vietnam. 

Maybe I have some bias for South Korea as my spouse of 44+ years is from there. One of her brothers was in the Blue Dragons in Nam. To be honest he never talked about it and I didn't ask.  We would sit for hours with our "soju", sometimes "sake", the bottle of Johnny Walker "Red" I would bring over, and/or my favorite "maekju" (beer) and not say anything.

I find this game reminds me of a French Foreign Legion post being besieged by  attacking Arabs.  Will the Legion (ROK's) be able to stand off the attackers or will the walls be breached? The same here.  There are numerous possible outcomes in this game. I find the game to be nail biting, close to the possible battle, and fun.  

In my playing, I have found the following - one can't play either side haphazardly. One must think of a plan and follow it. However, one must be able to change plans if something goes wrong (bad die roll or missed card draws 2 or 3 times in a row). Always have a backup plan.

The key for the ROK player is the artillery and air power. It will kill the NVA/VC units. However, remember to protect the ROK Divisional Artillery Support counter as once eliminated, it cannot return to play.

The key for the NVA/VC player is his sapper units. Use them wisely and make sure you protect them.  Always keep them stacked with another unit. If they are eliminated, bring them back as soon as possible. And use the jungle terrain.

Honestly, thank you for stopping by! I would like to hear any comments you may have on the game, good or bad.

-ab

This blog is considered to be a living blog. Changes will be made to it as needed to clarify, correct errors or update with new information. And I apologize, but this review may contain references to graphics that are no longer on this blog. Long story, but it was Google who removed them.

Showtime Hanoi

Showtime 100 verses Colonel Toon

This is the little game that began the "Eagles" gaming system.  Though only 4"x6" in size, counters that have to be cut out, rules so small, one needs a telescope to read, one would think, "self, what the fudge, is this?", and the answer is of course, "why it is a pocket game!". Small in size, yet as fun if not more so, than a monster game.  (I know setup is a whole easier!).

This game is about Lt Cunningham* and Lt Driscoll's victory over Colonel Toon*,  May 10, 1972, during Operation Linebacker, making this team one of the few aces the Americans had in Vietnam and the only Navy Ace for the entire war.

At Lt Cunningham's de-briefing, he stated that it was a MiG-17 he shot down, that he fired a Sidewinder missile, it hit sending the MiG-17 down into the ground and exploding. There was no parachute in sight.>

On his way back to his carrier (the USS Constellation (CV-64), Kitty Hawk class, operational between 1961 to 2003) Showtime 100 run out of luck and was hit by a SA-2 in the aft (rear for those none military types).  Nursing his crippled F-4J back to the carrier, he made it to the ocean as the aircraft hydraulics failed. Picked up out of the ocean by helicopter, both "Duke" and "Irish" landed on the USS Okinawa before being transferred back to the "Connie".

*Note - Did Lt Cunningham shoot down Col Toon? He believes he did. All we know is that the NVAF plane was a MiG-17, with the numbers of "3020" on it.  Most of the Aces of the  NVAF flew MiG-21's, not 17's, though there is at least one MiG-17 Ace with a score of 7 kills and that is Nguyen Van Bay, but he survived the war. 

 

The NVAF claim that the plane Lt Cunningham destroyed was flown by a pilot named Nguyen Van Tho and that he survived the loss of his aircraft which doesn't correspond to the explosion Lt Cunningham witnessed.  Some believe it was a senior officer of the 923rd Fighter Regiment with the authority to ignore orders to disengage. 

 

One thing about NVAF, many different folks flew the same aircraft and each time that aircraft was used to down an enemy plane, a star was painted on it. Basically a MiG could be seen with 13 stars and it could be a rookie flying it. I don't believe we will ever know for sure. Was Col Toon (Tomb) for real or just a case of a hero enshrined in legend by his opponents in the conflict? Who knows as people more in the know, know better than me. 

But, enough of the history. We have a game to review!

The Game:  Showtime Hanoi is designed By Paul Rohrbaugh with graphics by Craig Grando and this is Pocket Battle Game #3. ©2008, *LPS, Inc.

*Note - LPS, Inc (Landsknecht Publishing Services, Inc) is the mother company of Last Stand Games, Turning Point Simulations, and Against the Odds magazine. All are good companies, it is just hard  to figure out where to spend one's money.  

Parts of the Game, Part 1: Showtime Hanoi utilizes the standard 8x8 square grid over a remarkable game map thatlooks like it is an air chart (I know my Air Charts and this game map is pretty close). It has numbers printed in the squares that give the illusion of what is known as the Maximum Elevation Figures (MEF) grid on a standard JOG-Air chart. This could be the top of a hill or the height of a radio tower on a hill, etc. The game map MEF is actually the row of squares. Such as 1.2 is first row of squares, number 2 square from left, 5.5 is 5th row of squares, 5 squares from the left, etc. Pretty smart thinking on numbering the grid that way. 

I also like the way the lake, rivers, village and what looks like an aircraft compass rose is indicated on the game map.  The graphics designer was top-notch in his making of this game map.  

The same can be said for the counters, though to be honest, the top down view of the A-4's and the F-4's are a little too close in size. The A-4 was a much smaller aircraft.  But if you take your time and look closely, one can see the wings and tail are correct for a F-4. It is just if one is in a hurry, it is easy to confuse the two. No such luck on confusing the NVAF counters - MiG-17 Fresno, MiG-19 Farmer, and even got the correct look for the old Fishbed (MiG-21).

Besides the game map, there are 18 counters that need to be cut out. Three counters for US aircraft (2 F-4J Phantom II's and 1 A4 Skyhawk) and 3 NVAF aircraft (1 MiG-17, 1 MiG-19 and one MiG 21). There is a turn marker, altitude markers, a target marker and AAA (SA-2's!). There is no sun marker or wind marker as these are not used in this game.

A deck of cards will be needed (all cards plus 1 joker, please) and  one six sided die (1D6). Of course, not letting an opportunity go to waste, a set of cards can be bought for this game too! Cost is $* from High Flying Dice Games. Just click here to go to the web site to purchase these. 

Parts of the Game, Part 2:  Movement is by the card system that Paul came up with and has over the years fine-tune. Of course there is a Movement Chart and a Combat Modifiers Chart (however these are on the rear of the postal game map. One needs to copy the map and play on that or copy the back side ,so you don't keep turning the map upside down and losing the counters. LOL ....

And if you order a game from ATO magazine you can request a free set of die cut counters for this game. In this set of die cut counters are two F-4J, one A-4 Sky Hawk, one F-4 (extra), one A-1H Sky Raider, one A-6 Intruder, three F-105's (one ace), one RF-101 (should have been an RF-4C) and three counters with bombs on them.  For the NVAF, two MiG-17 (one Ace), one MiG-19, one MiG-21. In addition there are ten AAA (SA-2) sites with "?" on one side and a "2" on the flip-side, three dummies, four with different attack factors at the various altitude levels and three that has the "?" printed on the wrong side - these must be the original AAA counters and what looks like two counters for bombing opportunities.  

But be warned, though there are extra aircraft counters in the die cut counters, you don't get the variant rules with the die cut counters, unless you also order ATO, issue #23 (at $32 a back issue, that is an expensive variant), but that could be how you should order to get  the variant counters and ask for the game with die cut counters, thereby killing two Fishbeds with one Sidewinder.

I think it would be easy to come up with variant rules for the use of the new counters, With the F-105 Super Chief (i.e. Thud) it was consider a supersonic fighter bomber  and though it was one of primary attack aircraft in Vietnam, it has the distinction of being the only aircraft removed from combat due to the amount of casualties it sustained. Over 20,000 sorties were flown, 382 aircraft lost including 62 operational (non-combat) losses out of the 833 produced.  

 

However, where the F-105 came into it's own was as the two-seat F-105F and F-105G Wild Weasel variants flying SEAD missions against the Surface to Air SA-2 platforms.  And that is where I believe the 3 F-105 counters come into the game in addition to flying as fighter attackers using the 3 weird bomb counters.  Outside of this, you are on your own.

That pretty much sums up the game parts of this pocket game.  What's next? Oh yeah time to play it!

Game Setup:  Shuffle the deck! Don't forget to add only one joker (important).  Game setup is just like the other Paul Rohrbaugh air combat series - 

1. On the map the NV picks out three sides which will be friendly. 
2. Place 2 AAA (SA-2) counters in each corner of the three sides. 
3. Place a 3rd AAA (SA-2) in one of the four middle squares and also 
4. place the target marker in one of the four squares, But not the same space as the AAA!  
5. American places his 3 aircraft, at any level in any of the squares on his friendly side opposite the US player.
6. The NV places his MiG-17 & 19 in squares friendly to him at low, medium or high level. 
7. The MiG-21 will come on at turn 3. 

Actions:  Jump down, turn around, pick a card...

1. The US has the first card draw (CD)
1. if the CD is a joker, discard and draw again, if the CD is a black suit, all US Aircraft may expend a number of Action Points between his aircraft equal to 1/2 of the card value, rounding up. An Ace =1.
1. example - a Black 5 is turned over - this is 5/2=2.5, rounded up is 3 APs to spend. REMEMBER - no aircraft can exceed it's printed Action value (lower left of counter). US player can move 3 aircraft 1 square or move 1 aircraft 3 squares or move 1 aircraft 2 squares, leaving 1 AP to fire with.
2. It takes 1 AP to be able to attack the enemy aircraft or AAA or target.
2.  if the CD is a black face card then the US player can move one aircraft 3 squares 
3. OR allow a free attack on an AAA unit
4. if the CD is a red suit then the NV player may expend a number of APs (like #8.2 above) for his aircraft. 
5. if the CD is a red face card then the NV move one of their aircraft up to 3 spaces
6. OR allow a free attack from an AAA unit against an US aircraft.  

Combat:  Combat is another card draw and of course this has it own set of rules too.

1. Combat is voluntary! 
2. If you are going to attack, you must 
1. move one square forward, 
2. OR change a level (up or down). 
3. Combat costs 1 AP from the action phase (see above). 
4. Aircraft have a range of 2 squares, but watch out for that modifier!
5. Don't forget there is also the Combat Modifier Table!!!
6. And of course under combat, you have 
1. plane versus plane, 
2. bombing, 
3. AAA combat. 
4. Each has it's own set of rules. Not long, but you need to read them.

Game length is 4 turns, but inside those 4 turns is a deck of cards to go thru until 1 of 2 things happen - you run out of cards (new turn) or a joker pops up (whether for combat or movement and that is also a new turn).

Addendum: This game is pretty much standard like Fighting Eagles. Honestly, if you have that one, then this will be a piece of cake. If you have Head Honcho, the rules are the same, just the names have been changed to protect the guilty.

I keep thinking how brilliant the design of the game map is, all on a little 4"x6" card. The designer must have been prior military.  (he wasn't)

Ok, hopefully I have given you a review that WILL make you want to go and spend whatever it takes to get this game. Since it is a pocket battle game, one needs to order something from LPS, Inc and request it. Or maybe my review sucks and you say to heck with it.  

 

Whichever it is, you really do owe it to yourself to get this. Like all of Paul's Eagle game systems, this one too, is a gem. And not a rough one either. It is highly polished.

Without further adieu it is time for the ratings:
Complexity of the game = LOW (easy to learn, difficult to master)
Solitaire = HIGH (very little work is needed)
Fun Level = HIGH (the only thing missing is Nước Mắm (fish sauce if you ever been to Nam or Thailand)
Nail biting = 7 fingers worth.
Length of typical full game = .5 hour (30 minutes) to 1 hour.

Out of the 5 9 games I have played 1 3 NV win, 2 4 US wins, 2 draws. Both sides won and lost, It is pretty even, just the luck of the draw, as it always is. With the game map having squares, it would be very easy to adapt this to miniatures.

AAA - Below 2,000 feet, small arms were the most serious threat, but US directives limited most operations to altitudes above 4,500 feet, the maximum effective altitude of small arms fire, which limited the effect of these weapons. Other weapons included 14.5mm, 23mm, 37mm, 57mm, 85mm, and l00mm gun batteries, with effective altitude coverage up to 45,000 feet.

Then came the surface to air missiles such as the SA-2, SA-7, among the many different types. Of them all, the SA-2 was the deadliest.  However, like most weapon systems, the US worked out how to negate the effectiveness of the SAM's.

I really hope you can get this game before it is out of print. It is worth it. 
thanks for reading!
-ab out 

 

Also I need to add, this blog is considered to be a living blog. Changes will be made to it as needed to clarify, correct errors or update with new information.  And I apologize, but this review may contain references to graphics that are no longer on this blog. Long story, but it was Google who removed them.